Report 1423
Report #1423 Skillset: Skill: Unleash Org: Hartstone Status: Approved Jun 2016 Furies' Decision: Solution 1. Problem: Staff unleash abilities (Fury, Pollute, etc.) provide melders with the ability to deal large, variable chunks of damage to entire enemy groups from an arbitrary distance up to the entire possible length of a demesne, 30 rooms. While in practice, no one melds or plays to that extreme, the mechanic still allows a melder to very safely avoid reprisals but still output huge damage from several rooms away. Further, the large base damage means that buffs have an undue effect on this damage, swinging it from amounts that are quickly cured off and ignored to immediatly killing groups of people with some support. Likewise, differing levels of average resistance makes the different damage types and spreads of the various unleash skills more significant than usual. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: For each room away from a victim the caster is, their unleash's damage does progressivly less damage. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: Change based damage across the 6 unleashes to comparable values. See comments for suggested numbers and rationale. 0 R: 0 Solution #3: Introduce a large unblockable typing portion to each unleash. Adjust the damage formulas to keep average damage comprable to current values. This will help normalize unleash damage by reducing the effect of buffs and resistances on the damage. Player Comments: ---on 5/27 @ 23:24 writes: Suggested numbers right now are as follows: Make all unleashes deal 50% unblockable damage (Sol.#3). Make Fury (which will then be 50% cutting, 50% unblockable) deal 8% additional damage (50% of the average 'regular' armor, robes + shield or plate). Unleashes that deal smaller percentages of physical damage should receive proportionally lower damage boosts to normalize damage to account for standard armor. ---on 6/15 @ 22:55 writes: Solution 3 is terrible unless you are also reducing the overall damage done by these-- it's not "normalizing" the damage, it's "increasing" it for everyone who is not at 0 all resists (which is nobody, since all have access to Kirigami at the very least). I don't particularly mind if the damage is reduced the further away from the caster you go, but I'm not sure how important it is. I don't really see it as being problematic right now (it's not like Fury doesn't do a hefty chunk of damage, after all). ---on 6/15 @ 22:59 writes: Yes, that is intended. I haven't been able to go to testing to nail down what that value would be though. It will certainly be easier to figure out for coders who can directly look at the damage formulas, but I'll give it a stab. I'll update the solutionss to make that more clear. ---on 6/16 @ 00:34 writes: I guess I don't understand this report. At the meta you won't die to any meldbomb that is 10 rooms away, and the meld tic won't be hitting so it seems to be redundantly discouraging mages from being far away. That being said, I'm still pondering on it and not absolutely opposed to it. Solution 2 is just a druid buff without any discussion regarding the context of druid v mage and why the bombs (among other things) should or should not be identical or directly comparable. 3 just seems like a work around to partially remove it from the damage typing/buff system. ---on 6/16 @ 01:11 writes: I'm not sure how I feel about the additional damage to make up for cutting being blocked by armor. Does fury currently cause bleeding? ---on 6/17 @ 01:43 writes: The solutions do not resolve the problem statement. The large damage of the unleashes compared to safety a melder can use unleashes from is disproportionate, and therefore the problem. ---on 6/17 @ 01:50 writes: The solution is therefore not to 'normalize' the damage or buff it. It is to either nerf the safety which melders can do unleashes, or the damage itself. Solution 1 is the closest to actually addressing the problem, but I argue that it doesn't do enough (which is why I said no solutions address the problem) because the problem statement clearly states that such distances are not used much in practical combat. If the result is effectively the status quo when the skill is most practically used, then there is no point to the solution. I will post some alternate suggestions later today, when I'm at a proper computer. ---on 6/17 @ 10:10 writes: Support in solution 1. I fully agree with Lerad's assessment of the skill. ---on 6/17 @ 12:30 writes: The solutions DO nerf the safety - The risk factor that comes in is the mana vulnerability, but it's trivially easy for the melder to cast this skill from sufficiently far away that it's not reasonable for anyone to get to them and capitalize on that vulnerability. Distance is the issue, and harsh enough scaling can push a melder to be within a 2 room radius, which is dramatically more fesiable to chase down than the current status quo. The other two solutions DO nerf the damage of unleashes that are problematic, from folks like Avurekhos or Cyndarin who have their damage output maximized. Both aspects of the issue are tackled, the risk floor is brought up and the damage ceiling is lowered. ---on 6/17 @ 22:45 writes: I do consider Unleash in its current state to be a problem. Personally I take 80% or more from an optimized mage/druid unleash, not including the potential for 10% from a meld hit, and whatever other damage the mage, druid or allies throws out as it connects, and this is to all enemies. I think there's three broad ways to limit this. Reducing the range of Unleash and introducing more generally available counterplay options, adding more prep to Unleash, or reducing the damage of Unleash. Some brainstorming: - Make Unleash apply only to the room of the Melder, and dissipate if the Melder is not within the room at 5s before hit, and when it hits. - Reduce the damage of Unleash by 35%. This would take an Unleash dealing 80% of max health to 52%, or an Unleash dealing 100% of health to 65%, much more manageable and requiring more tactics to get kills. - Require the mage/druid to 'charge' a room several times before an Unleash affects the room or reduce the damage, and increase it to where it is now if the room is charged. Make a charged room able to be reduced in charge level with scroll of disruption or Kether or something in Environment. ---on 6/17 @ 22:49 writes: I'm ok with adjusting Fury to be equivalent to mage Unleashes. Also, the mana kill vulnerability is not always an option for countering Unleash, due to potentially limited access of mana kills (along with the previously mentioned range issue). However, I do want to add that when report 1329 is completed, this may alleviate some of the issue. ---on 6/17 @ 23:58 writes: I'm okay with reworking or nerfing unleash but 50% of max health for 10 power and full mana is not worth using, If it uses 100% mana and forces you to never use it when a mana killer is present then it becomes so niche it's not worth being a trans skill. The meldbombs are useful because they clear out lazy or casual PKers who don't min/max and bursting down a single target with some coordination. Everyone else survives comfortably because they are not the target. I, personally, would rather rework each meld bomb to be something class specific (like burns, or mana damage, bleeding, etc). This report needs more time to be fleshed out more. I'll support solution 1 for now but that's it. ---on 6/18 @ 00:00 writes: That was in response to a couple of Shedrin's suggestions. I also hate the "charged" idea that will just create mini meld wars inside of existing meld wars. ---on 6/18 @ 00:06 writes: What about removing the full mana usage and each staff adds a temporary demesne effect that follows the caster. Still 10 power. Everyone can get a damage tic + some demesne specific effect. Burns, bleeding, etc etc. ---on 6/18 @ 00:09 writes: Ultimately I know that reducing damage to no longer actually damage burst people quickly result in it falling into disuse. 50% damage hoping to kill 1 person just isn't good enough for 10 power and full mana. You could keep it as is and make it LoS only and only usable on a single target. Would eliminate the group bomb aspect. ---on 6/18 @ 16:16 writes: I think 50%+ of damage to all enemies is still quite valuable, though removing the full mana drain would be ok there. I do like the idea of making each unleash meld-specific as @Cyndarin said above, if good ideas for each guild can be thought up. ---on 6/19 @ 04:36 writes: Well 50% sucks and I'd never use it. The value of meldbombs isn't in the damage it does to all enemies, it's in the ability to kill the zerglings (or low might, low resistance players) which can tip the scales in a fight. 50% damage does actually threaten anyone but the primary target, especially if it uses full reserves, has a 12 second delay, and can't be repeated. You're literally only going to (possibly) kill 1 target with it. If you remove the ability to kill the casual PKers, meldbombs lose an enormous value. Which is fine, I'm okay with that. But I just want to be clear that the replacement of a trans skill should still have value, like class specifics bombs. Just nerfing damage means mages get the shaft. ---on 6/19 @ 04:41 writes: For comparison, Researchers have excellent roomwide damage but one attack or even two is not threatening. It's the repeated spammable damage that makes it threatening. One big burst only works if that big burst actually kills. If it doesn't, it needs to be spammable like balestone. the reality is there is no in between in value, and that is because health damage has 3 cures and is by far the most easily recoverable "kill strategy," in the game. 50% damage to a group means nothing if the entire group has recoverd by the time you kill the primary target, which is easily accomplished in 10 seconds. ---on 6/20 @ 20:24 writes: All mages have a roomwide damage attack and potential allies with even stronger (ranged) damage bombs from chems that are doubly enhanced by coordinating with a meld-holding mage. 'Lazy or casual PKers' might stop using these abilities, but there certainly would still be (less one-button oriented) options for clearing out lower tier combatants en masse using burst meld damage. ---on 6/21 @ 21:27 writes: I don't think Unleash should be an instakill, even on weaklings. If it's going to be that level, then it should require more prep. Either in something the Mage does personally like how Meteor requires spheres, or in synchronising with your allies. ---on 6/22 @ 01:14 writes: I don't agree with catering to casuals in the meta, but if we do go that direction for meldbombs, I'm fine with thay specific change. However, if you are removing the reason to use meldbombs, in that it clears out the casuals, then there needs to be an equivalent reduction in cost and accessibility.That was my point. 50% health for 10 power and full mana after a 12 second delay is not going to cut it. ---on 6/22 @ 12:56 writes: You can't balance around casual PKer's. You need to balance around the top tier. This includes damage from unleash. By balancing around the casual PKer, top tier people become a whole lot stronger. I personally don't understand the complaints about unleash. You have several options during a group fight to prevent it. The only solution I can really get behind is Solution 1. I'd even go so far as to bring it into line with meld effets and say it's only effective where meld effects hit. The options available to counter it (lusting, breaking the meld, leaving the meld) are all sufficient to deal with unleash. I don't believe making changes based on limited situations like you don't have a melder to break either. That said, I'm not opposed to changing it per Celina's suggestions either. ---on 6/22 @ 12:59 writes: Oh, with regards to Fury vs Mage bombs - I think the better solution is to bring armor into the bodyscan fold rather than a straight physical damage reduction. I don't support raising Fury damage just to be equal because they have worse typing. ---on 6/23 @ 15:17 writes: Prefer Suggestion 1 or Celina's suggestion. They typically don't kill me unless I've been hit a couple times with damage anyways but I do agree that it is useful for clearing out some of the smaller targets. If we do the distance diminishing returns thing it would make it so the Druid/Mage can't hide out on a far part of a demesne and forces them to be somewhat closer, raising the risk, raising the potential is my take from it. ---on 6/24 @ 03:36 writes: I think that implications that my comments are balancing around casual PKers is a misinterpretation. Further, I certainly did use Unleash at the 50%-60% level of damage when I was a Mage with barely any artifacts and worse damage typing. On it's own it wouldn't kill, of course, but it is useful in a large group when coordinating with allies and synchronising with other personal aoe options (phantomsphere detonate, boulderblast equivalents, etc.) Perhaps it would help if people could post what specific amounts of damage they are taking from optimized Unleashes, as from my perspective, taking 90% from an Unleash + meld is certainly approaching group instakill territory (add a boulderblast or equivalent) on a non-casual PK level. ---on 6/28 @ 23:40 writes: As it is, I think all of the meld bombs are too strong. The limitations and drawbacks really aren't enough and in many situations there isn't really a realistic counter to it other than to leave the meld (and in some cases even this isn't really feasible). I don't agree that just because a melder has a lot of artifacts and maxed out buffs that they should be able to effectively one- shot people who haven't also invested so much without even having to be in the same room, all at the same time. The fact that there are so many potential solutions that people have brought up shows that this skill is currently over the top. Any nerf, whether it is a nerf to the damage, making it proximity limited (if not room limited), making it a channeled ability etc, would be welcome imo. ---on 6/28 @ 23:48 writes: On the problem of armour, I never bought the idea that druid unleashes are meant to be weaker because their melds are stronger overall. The problem is that whether a skillset has physical damage is usually determined by the theme rather than any concerns about balance. There is also the fact that not everyone has the same armour. The Rune of Absorption is also able to block physical damage of any kind. All of this introduces a lot of variables that all contribute fairly significantly. I think it makes more sense to just have these things apply to denizen physical damage and leave them out of pvp damage calculations. Scale down the base damage of skills that currently do physical damage as needed (i.e. warriors and monks) and leave the damage the same for skills that are otherwise on par (e.g. Aquachem bombs which have partial physical damage when none of the other chems do).